It’s almost like a lack of investment and propoganda from car companies have convinced people public transportation can’t be convenient, clean, and reliable.
No, they really are not. They’re slower (because they cause you to wait for all the other cars, and also they generally physically slower than all rail based options too), they pollute more, and they suck to drive and be in.
I’d much rather sit around on a nice train or something and read, play games, or whatever leasure activity I want. If you’re driving a car you need to be focused on driving. If you’re a passenger in public transport you be productive or enjoy it, and you can even stand up and stuff if you need to. Trains even often will have food/drink options too, as well as restrooms and possibly even beds. You can literally go to the bar, drink, and sleep all while getting to your destination. Convince me a car is better than that.
Nope. I took a train to pick up a car and drove back two weeks ago (selling the existing car got me a better deal than trading in, so I was briefly carless). The car was faster because I didn’t have to change three times and I could actually go directly to where I wanted to go. Instead of waiting and waiting and then having to walk the last part in the sun.
This was a real journey I did. This was my real experience. It sucked.
I used to use public transport daily back in the day and I fucking hated it.
they pollute more
My car is electric.
and they suck to drive and be in.
Air conditioned, comfortable faux leather seats that didn’t have stains on them, I got sit down for the entire journey, I wasn’t bothered by strangers, I went directly to my destination.
No crackhead came over with some bullshit sob story asking for money.
It didn’t smell bad. It wasn’t stupidly hot as the air conditioning was actually effective.
The driver assistance features made the journey somewhat pleasant and I was noticeably more refreshed on arrival than the leg of the journey with public transport.
If you’re a passenger in public transport you be productive or enjoy it, and you can even stand up and stuff if you need to
Yes, I thoroughly enjoyed talking to that addict. I concede that was a highlight of the day /s
Trains even often will have food/drink options too
If you want to spend literally double the market rate and risk losing your seat when you get up, sure.
as well as restrooms and possibly even beds.
Service stations are a thing.
Convince me a car is better than that.
I don’t have to. I stopped taking public transport when I got a licence 20 years ago and it’s very rare that I use it anymore.
There’s several reasons for that. It was a choice I made and I do not regret at all.
With the car I can just get to where I actually want to go in one go.
I’m not saying a car is universally better in every possible way that you can come up with (yes, maybe you can sleep on public transport if you’re brave enough) and maybe investment will solve some of the issues, but the benefits of the car are far better than public transport ever will be.
Remember, I did public transport on the daily for several years. Never again.
Nope. I took a train to pick up a car and drove back two weeks ago (selling the existing car got me a better deal than trading in, so I was briefly carless). The car was faster because I didn’t have to change three times and I could actually go directly to where I wanted to go. Instead of waiting and waiting and then having to walk the last part in the sun.
Again, lack of investment. If I tie your legs together and race you, it doesn’t prove that I’m faster than you. Cars have had an extraordinary amount of money invested into their infrastructure. If we invested a fraction of that into trains, they’d be faster.
My car is electric.
Where does your electricity come from? Could it not be used to remove dirty energy from the grid? Energy is energy. It doesn’t matter if it comes from petroleum, natural gas, sunlight, wind, whatever. It can be used to do a certain amount of work. That can be for individual cars carrying probably one person at a time, or it can be used for a train of some form carrying hundreds or more people at a time. The train is more efficient. Also, many trains are electric, just not in the US (see: lack of investment). The smart infrastructure runs power alongside rail, since you need to clear the space anyway, and provide an overhead power connection to trains.
Air conditioned, comfortable faux leather seats that didn’t have stains on them, I got sit down for the entire journey, I wasn’t bothered by strangers, I went directly to my destination.
Who bothers people in public transport? Public transport can have all those things (probably won’t have faux leather, but who wants that anyway?), but much more convenient. Some trains will have observation spaces and benches and things even, along with likely nicer bathrooms than whatever gas station you stop at.
I’ve taken the DC metro many times. I used to live in the area. I was never bothered and it was always relatively clean. The air conditioner worked fine always. I understand the DC metro is likely the best, or at least close it, in the US, but it doesn’t need to be an outlier.
You’re comparing your experience with an under-invested in system to an over-invested in one and saying the over-invested one is better. No shit. No one is arguing with that. We’re saying it could be significantly better if the investment was put in.
We can see this in other countries. In Switzerland, every village is connected by train that arrives frequently and reliably. The terrain there is really horrible, yet they’ve invested in trains and created a system that works well. If it can be done there, it can be done in the relatively flat US. Hell, we already did it before, back before lobbying and profiteering destroyed it. I’m sure you know the story of time zones. It was to make train schedules make sense, because passenger trains arrived relatively on time relatively reliably.
You can see the influence of car manufacturers all over. Did you know the US is the only country to have jay-walking laws? They were created to cede the roads from the people to cars. Technically, pedestrians still have the right-of-way, but we pretty much aren’t allowed to walk on roads anymore. We had “car safety” pushed into our schools to ensure children “knew” that the roads belonged to cars. They do everything in their power to tell us that they deserve something so they can sell more cars. They also tell us the only way public transportation can exist is the way you describe it. It isn’t true though. Plenty of places have good public transport. They have crippled it where possible though so the only reasonable option available is their cars.
Again, lack of investment. If I tie your legs together and race you, it doesn’t prove that I’m faster than you. Cars have had an extraordinary amount of money invested into their infrastructure. If we invested a fraction of that into trains, they’d be faster.
And yet I still wouldn’t be able to get to where I need to be without numerous changes and all the other downsides you are conveniently ignoring.
My car is electric.
Where does your electricity come from?
My solar panels.
When my solar panels won’t be enough, the electricity from my supplier is 100% green energy sources (mostly solar and wind is my understanding)
It doesn’t matter if it comes from petroleum, natural gas, sunlight, wind, whatever
Yes it does. Of course it fucking does. If it didn’t you wouldn’t have asked how I charge my car and we’d all be using steam still.
You are rapidly losing credibility with this nonsense and off topic gibberish.
Air conditioned, comfortable faux leather seats that didn’t have stains on them, I got sit down for the entire journey, I wasn’t bothered by strangers, I went directly to my destination.
Who bothers people in public transport?
The aforementioned crackheads. I’ve literally seen violent crime whilst taking the train before. I’ve had idiots approaching me (and others on the carriageway, I wasn’t singled out) begging me for money, or food or asking if I want to buy or sell drugs. I even saw one moron hit the emergency stop on a train because he wanted a cigarette and the train wasn’t stopping soon enough for him.
Public transport can have all those things
Except it can’t. It won’t ever match the comfort of my car and the fact I can go directly from where I am to where I want to be in the vast majority of cases. Unless you are literally going to build a rail track or a bus route from my house to everywhere I want to go (which is absolutely the case for roads in the vast majority of cases) then it will not compete. It just won’t.
I’ve taken the DC metro many times. I used to live in the area. I was never bothered and it was always relatively clean.
Lucky you. I’m very happy for you.
You’re comparing your experience with an under-invested in system to an over-invested in one and saying the over-invested one is better. No shit. No one is arguing with that. We’re saying it could be significantly better if the investment was put in.
And you’re completely ignoring the core points I’m making and going off on irrelevant tangents. Feel free to actually start reading what I wrote at any time.
I’ll make the point one last time: It’s not a question of investment as investment won’t fix the inherent downsides of public transport which private cars do not suffer from
My car is clean, safe, comfortable, I get to choose the company I keep, and I can get directly to where I want to be in one go. Public transport, whilst I concede it has some advantages (something which you cannot do for the car for some reason) simply cannot compete. It’s not “lobbying” or “propaganda”, it’s the simple fact that the private car has significant advantages over the alternative, which is the real reason that people are choosing it.
If you reply with irrelevant off topic nonsense again, I shall ignore you. I don’t mind debating this but when you reply with the mindless drivel that you have been and basically ignoring the points made, I won’t waste my time any further.
It doesn’t matter if it comes from petroleum, natural gas, sunlight, wind, whatever
Yes it does. Of course it fucking does. If it didn’t you wouldn’t have asked how I charge my car and we’d all be using steam still.
It’s so easy to make things sound dumb when you remove context. Energy is energy. If you spend more to do the same amount of work, that means it’s less efficient. If the measure of productivity is people moved, trains are more efficient. It doesn’t matter what form the energy is generated from, it can all be measured as energy.
I’m done. You’re purposefully engaging in bad faith argument tactics.
I’m done. You’re purposefully engaging in bad faith argument tactics.
I’m doing nothing of the sort.
You’re the one that tried to reframe the argument around energy usage when it was originally “public transport would be universally better if we just invested more”. An argument which is fundamentally flawed, which I have proved is fundamentally flawed and you have no response to.
You simply cannot acknowledge that there are tangible benefits and advantages to private transport. You have not conceded or even acknowledged a single point which I made where cars clearly have an advantage.
All of you’ve done is repeatedly ignore all the points I’ve made, shifted your argument from investment to energy use for some reason, pulled out one paragraph to which I was calling out your irrelevant argument shift, and then somehow cried about it and said you don’t want to play anymore because you simply have no response to facts presented.
THAT is bad faith argument. I hope the irony of this isn’t lost on you.
You’re the one that tried to reframe the argument around energy usage when it was originally “public transport would be universally better if we just invested more”. An argument which is fundamentally flawed, which I have proved is fundamentally flawed and you have no response to.
Reframe it? Efficiency was one of the first things I mentioned. Most modern trains are electric, just like your car. Their usually still diesel in the US because we haven’t invested anything in the infrastructure in decades.
You simply cannot acknowledge that there are tangible benefits and advantages to private transport. You have not conceded or even acknowledged a single point which I made where cars clearly have an advantage.
The benefit is point-to-point travel, but good public transport can do that too, especially with things like bike rental and stuff. Cars make it worse, if not impossible though because we have to spend at least as much space for every business on parking. Most places literally have minimum parking laws, where some estimate of maximum occupancy is used for requiring parking spaces. Get rid of cars and we can have places a lot closer so public transport stops will be closer to where you want to go.
I guess there’s also the benefit of never interacting with anyone, though I’d personally say that’s a negative. I think a lack of interaction with people who live in the same area as you with similar problems to you has been a major detriment to the US. It’s part of why things are so polarized. People sit alone at home, alone traveling to work, mostly alone at work, and then back. Additionally, denser spaces and public transport allow for third places to succeed. They can’t exist in a suburb hell scape.
Remember, I did public transport on the daily for several years. Never again.
You have the entirely wrong takeaway from this lol. Knowing how bad public transportation is should make you want to strive for changes, not add to the problem by clogging up the roads.
As someone who rides public transportation every day that I’m not allowed to work from home, it’s not convenient or clean and the only reliable thing about the MTA is that there will be “unavoidable delays”
It’s almost like a lack of investment and propoganda from car companies have convinced people public transportation can’t be convenient, clean, and reliable.
Investing won’t change the fact that personal cars are a superior form or transport for the majority of people for the majority of the time.
The cat is out of the bag and it’s never going in again.
No, they really are not. They’re slower (because they cause you to wait for all the other cars, and also they generally physically slower than all rail based options too), they pollute more, and they suck to drive and be in.
I’d much rather sit around on a nice train or something and read, play games, or whatever leasure activity I want. If you’re driving a car you need to be focused on driving. If you’re a passenger in public transport you be productive or enjoy it, and you can even stand up and stuff if you need to. Trains even often will have food/drink options too, as well as restrooms and possibly even beds. You can literally go to the bar, drink, and sleep all while getting to your destination. Convince me a car is better than that.
Nope. I took a train to pick up a car and drove back two weeks ago (selling the existing car got me a better deal than trading in, so I was briefly carless). The car was faster because I didn’t have to change three times and I could actually go directly to where I wanted to go. Instead of waiting and waiting and then having to walk the last part in the sun.
This was a real journey I did. This was my real experience. It sucked.
I used to use public transport daily back in the day and I fucking hated it.
My car is electric.
Air conditioned, comfortable faux leather seats that didn’t have stains on them, I got sit down for the entire journey, I wasn’t bothered by strangers, I went directly to my destination.
No crackhead came over with some bullshit sob story asking for money.
It didn’t smell bad. It wasn’t stupidly hot as the air conditioning was actually effective.
The driver assistance features made the journey somewhat pleasant and I was noticeably more refreshed on arrival than the leg of the journey with public transport.
Yes, I thoroughly enjoyed talking to that addict. I concede that was a highlight of the day /s
If you want to spend literally double the market rate and risk losing your seat when you get up, sure.
Service stations are a thing.
I don’t have to. I stopped taking public transport when I got a licence 20 years ago and it’s very rare that I use it anymore.
There’s several reasons for that. It was a choice I made and I do not regret at all.
With the car I can just get to where I actually want to go in one go.
I’m not saying a car is universally better in every possible way that you can come up with (yes, maybe you can sleep on public transport if you’re brave enough) and maybe investment will solve some of the issues, but the benefits of the car are far better than public transport ever will be.
Remember, I did public transport on the daily for several years. Never again.
Again, lack of investment. If I tie your legs together and race you, it doesn’t prove that I’m faster than you. Cars have had an extraordinary amount of money invested into their infrastructure. If we invested a fraction of that into trains, they’d be faster.
Where does your electricity come from? Could it not be used to remove dirty energy from the grid? Energy is energy. It doesn’t matter if it comes from petroleum, natural gas, sunlight, wind, whatever. It can be used to do a certain amount of work. That can be for individual cars carrying probably one person at a time, or it can be used for a train of some form carrying hundreds or more people at a time. The train is more efficient. Also, many trains are electric, just not in the US (see: lack of investment). The smart infrastructure runs power alongside rail, since you need to clear the space anyway, and provide an overhead power connection to trains.
Who bothers people in public transport? Public transport can have all those things (probably won’t have faux leather, but who wants that anyway?), but much more convenient. Some trains will have observation spaces and benches and things even, along with likely nicer bathrooms than whatever gas station you stop at.
I’ve taken the DC metro many times. I used to live in the area. I was never bothered and it was always relatively clean. The air conditioner worked fine always. I understand the DC metro is likely the best, or at least close it, in the US, but it doesn’t need to be an outlier.
You’re comparing your experience with an under-invested in system to an over-invested in one and saying the over-invested one is better. No shit. No one is arguing with that. We’re saying it could be significantly better if the investment was put in.
We can see this in other countries. In Switzerland, every village is connected by train that arrives frequently and reliably. The terrain there is really horrible, yet they’ve invested in trains and created a system that works well. If it can be done there, it can be done in the relatively flat US. Hell, we already did it before, back before lobbying and profiteering destroyed it. I’m sure you know the story of time zones. It was to make train schedules make sense, because passenger trains arrived relatively on time relatively reliably.
You can see the influence of car manufacturers all over. Did you know the US is the only country to have jay-walking laws? They were created to cede the roads from the people to cars. Technically, pedestrians still have the right-of-way, but we pretty much aren’t allowed to walk on roads anymore. We had “car safety” pushed into our schools to ensure children “knew” that the roads belonged to cars. They do everything in their power to tell us that they deserve something so they can sell more cars. They also tell us the only way public transportation can exist is the way you describe it. It isn’t true though. Plenty of places have good public transport. They have crippled it where possible though so the only reasonable option available is their cars.
And yet I still wouldn’t be able to get to where I need to be without numerous changes and all the other downsides you are conveniently ignoring.
My solar panels.
When my solar panels won’t be enough, the electricity from my supplier is 100% green energy sources (mostly solar and wind is my understanding)
Yes it does. Of course it fucking does. If it didn’t you wouldn’t have asked how I charge my car and we’d all be using steam still.
You are rapidly losing credibility with this nonsense and off topic gibberish.
The aforementioned crackheads. I’ve literally seen violent crime whilst taking the train before. I’ve had idiots approaching me (and others on the carriageway, I wasn’t singled out) begging me for money, or food or asking if I want to buy or sell drugs. I even saw one moron hit the emergency stop on a train because he wanted a cigarette and the train wasn’t stopping soon enough for him.
Except it can’t. It won’t ever match the comfort of my car and the fact I can go directly from where I am to where I want to be in the vast majority of cases. Unless you are literally going to build a rail track or a bus route from my house to everywhere I want to go (which is absolutely the case for roads in the vast majority of cases) then it will not compete. It just won’t.
Lucky you. I’m very happy for you.
And you’re completely ignoring the core points I’m making and going off on irrelevant tangents. Feel free to actually start reading what I wrote at any time.
I’ll make the point one last time: It’s not a question of investment as investment won’t fix the inherent downsides of public transport which private cars do not suffer from
My car is clean, safe, comfortable, I get to choose the company I keep, and I can get directly to where I want to be in one go. Public transport, whilst I concede it has some advantages (something which you cannot do for the car for some reason) simply cannot compete. It’s not “lobbying” or “propaganda”, it’s the simple fact that the private car has significant advantages over the alternative, which is the real reason that people are choosing it.
If you reply with irrelevant off topic nonsense again, I shall ignore you. I don’t mind debating this but when you reply with the mindless drivel that you have been and basically ignoring the points made, I won’t waste my time any further.
It’s so easy to make things sound dumb when you remove context. Energy is energy. If you spend more to do the same amount of work, that means it’s less efficient. If the measure of productivity is people moved, trains are more efficient. It doesn’t matter what form the energy is generated from, it can all be measured as energy.
I’m done. You’re purposefully engaging in bad faith argument tactics.
I’m doing nothing of the sort.
You’re the one that tried to reframe the argument around energy usage when it was originally “public transport would be universally better if we just invested more”. An argument which is fundamentally flawed, which I have proved is fundamentally flawed and you have no response to.
You simply cannot acknowledge that there are tangible benefits and advantages to private transport. You have not conceded or even acknowledged a single point which I made where cars clearly have an advantage.
All of you’ve done is repeatedly ignore all the points I’ve made, shifted your argument from investment to energy use for some reason, pulled out one paragraph to which I was calling out your irrelevant argument shift, and then somehow cried about it and said you don’t want to play anymore because you simply have no response to facts presented.
THAT is bad faith argument. I hope the irony of this isn’t lost on you.
Reframe it? Efficiency was one of the first things I mentioned. Most modern trains are electric, just like your car. Their usually still diesel in the US because we haven’t invested anything in the infrastructure in decades.
The benefit is point-to-point travel, but good public transport can do that too, especially with things like bike rental and stuff. Cars make it worse, if not impossible though because we have to spend at least as much space for every business on parking. Most places literally have minimum parking laws, where some estimate of maximum occupancy is used for requiring parking spaces. Get rid of cars and we can have places a lot closer so public transport stops will be closer to where you want to go.
I guess there’s also the benefit of never interacting with anyone, though I’d personally say that’s a negative. I think a lack of interaction with people who live in the same area as you with similar problems to you has been a major detriment to the US. It’s part of why things are so polarized. People sit alone at home, alone traveling to work, mostly alone at work, and then back. Additionally, denser spaces and public transport allow for third places to succeed. They can’t exist in a suburb hell scape.
Lol
You have the entirely wrong takeaway from this lol. Knowing how bad public transportation is should make you want to strive for changes, not add to the problem by clogging up the roads.
As someone who rides public transportation every day that I’m not allowed to work from home, it’s not convenient or clean and the only reliable thing about the MTA is that there will be “unavoidable delays”
did you miss the part about lack of investment or are you being purposefully dense?