Vanguard, the controversial anti-cheat software initially attached to Valorant, is now also coming to League of Legends.
Summary:
The article discusses Riot Games’ requirement for players to install their Vanguard anti-cheat software, which runs at the kernel level, in order to play their games such as League of Legends and Valorant. The software aims to combat cheating by scanning for known vulnerabilities and blocking them, as well as monitoring for suspicious activity while the game is being played. However, the use of kernel-level software raises concerns about privacy and security, as it grants the company complete access to users’ devices.
The article highlights that Riot Games is owned by Tencent, a Chinese tech giant that has been involved in censorship and surveillance activities in China. This raises concerns that Vanguard could potentially be used for similar purposes, such as monitoring players’ activity and restricting free speech in-game.
Ultimately, the decision to install Vanguard rests with players, but the article urges caution and encourages players to consider the potential risks and implications before doing so.
Kernal level anti-cheat means I ain’t gonna play it
I don’t care where the company is based no game should be requiring kernal level access, that’s just opening the door for security concerns
I’m wondering if there’s a way we can even know they’re installing it. Windows just gives that generic admin prompt, I imagine? Tells you nothing of what’s happening.
Well if you get asked for sudo, then that’s a risk.
Installing almost anything* on Windows requires the equivalent of sudo, same as Linux.
Determining if it’s a normal install or adding a kernel driver wouldn’t be feasible just by watching the installation. (On either OS if they are not showing terminal output)
EDIT:
My context here (which I should have been explicit about sooner) is: “ordinary user is installing a closed source commercial large game” (with its own installer) and doesn’t know if they are also getting a free rootkit.
They are going to just click Next without changing defaults, and are not going to extract and inspect anything.
Most user software should NOT need sudo.
Typically you need “sudo” to use the package installer though, if that’s where you’re getting confused. But that’s because most Linux package managers are built to install software to be available for all users. However once installed that does NOT mean the package always has sudo access. And the way Linux software is typically installed is just putting the executable in a certain folder, unlike Windows where you run a software’s custom installer which asks for admin access and then does who knows what.
You usually have the option of installing for just your user, and I think that usually doesn’t require admin permissions.
My context here (which I should have been more explicit about) is “ordinary user is installing a closed source commercial large game” (with its own installer) and doesn’t know if they are also getting a free rootkit.
Sure when it’s something you compile yourself and you have some knowledge you can ./configure it to go under your home directory and not need sudo to make install later, but a game with a script or binary you need to run is likely to ask for root on launch (Especially on Windows) and maybe asks later or has command line options for a single user install, but we can assume the user does whatever is default.
However once installed that does NOT mean the package always has sudo access.
I didn’t suggest that it would (although it Could if it’s malicious - on Linux that would be as simple as the setuid bit. Or …back on topic… installing a kernel driver on either OS)
Installing almost anything* on Windows requires the equivalent of sudo, same as Linux.
I feel like you’re not sure how system software like
ssh
and a user’s personal game software can install differently in different places, and where one needs no root access to install at all. Go see how mac does it.Macs still ask me for permissions and I have no idea what’s asking to do what.
I get it for Linux and Windows (though I don’t know how MacOS does it) my context here (which I should have been more explicit about) is “ordinary user is installing a closed source commercial large game” (with its own installer) and doesn’t know if they are also getting a free rootkit.
Sure when it’s something you compile yourself and you have some knowledge you can ./configure it to go under your home directory and not need sudo to make install later, but a game with a script or binary you need to run is likely to ask for root on launch (Especially on Windows) and maybe asks later or has command line options for a single user install, but we can assume the user does whatever is default.
same as Linux.
You couldn’t be more wrong bud. Flatpaks do not require sudo, executables run from a directory (like how Steam games are run) don’t require sudo either. You only need sudo if installing from the main package manager like deb, rpm, pacman or whatever your distro uses. Most games on Linux aren’t installed from the main package manager though.
(On either OS if they are not showing terminal output)
If it’s a package for the package manager you could download the archive for it and pull it apart to see its contents, it’s usually very clear when such software includes kernel drivers or kernel patchers. Most software on Linux uses the package manager to install or a script to unpack, both of which are relatively easy to explore even if the software isn’t open source, haven’t found too many linux apps with Binary installers, they might exist but if they do they aren’t popular or common.
Since this keeps coming up, I edited the post you replied to. TLDR is that we are assuming different contexts.
You can list all the current loaded drivers. You can examine the system event log for service start operations. You can run with a kernel debugger attached and examine any loaded driver. The driver itself is likely correctly signed and will not require additional user acknowledgement beyond what was given when the game was installed.
Unfortunately all of those just tell you it’s already installed, not that it’s about to install it. If you didn’t know, who’s going to be constantly checking for new drivers after every software install?
It would probably show up in Autoruns. Maybe even with a background service in task manager.
Kernel level drivers would not be in auto run.
What, why not?
Ask Microsoft
Good cheat prevention needs to be part of the game’s fundamental design, not some virus as a band-aid.
While I do agree with you, some cheats manipulate the memory itself so you would need some elevated privilages to dectect them as the cheats themsevles run with these privileges
Can you name one of those games that have no anticheat and also no cheaters?
Anti cheat as a fundamental design does not necessarily mean no anti cheat.
*kernel
Colonel*
Carnal
Kerbal
Cornhole
Cornell
Cornholio
That’s O’Neill, with two 'L’s
We totally won’t harvest your data.
Ignore the fact that we have political, state, and financial interest to do so, and that you would have no way of verifying or detecting if we did harvest your data, but you can trust us.
Just trust us.
It’s not only interests of the chinese government, they HAVE to oblige legally if they are asked to. So even if the company has the best intentions, the government overrules.
And don’t make that a chinese bad guy argument, as if western companies aren’t doing the same, they just don’t do that officially, which one is shadier is yours to decide.
All you can do as a company or anyone is to stop harvesting data and don’t plant blackboxes/backdoors in customers systems
Edward Snowden showed that the US is spying on their citicens but nobody seems to care. But when China is doing it, everybody seems to lose their mind.
I don’t get why they are so afraid of spyware from a country they don’t even live in, it’s the US that can prosecute you for anything they don’t like on your computer.
It’s okay though, riot said they have the best team working for them! /s
If you ask me, it’s best to treat any program requiring kernel level access that isn’t part of your base operating system or something you created and have full control over as malware. All it takes is one exploit or something of similar nature and some bad actors taking advantage of it before it can be patched for your computer to become fucked.
Well base operating system or hardware driver. There are exceptions, the pps driver for timekeeping makes sense to be kernel level too.
But games developers? No, they have no right to ring 0. I understand they want to protect from cheats, but they’re just moving the battleground to a part of the system that results in blue screens/panics when it fails. And cheat developers will follow them there and even move to the hypervisor if needed, trust me on that.
Not to mention MSI releasing a monitor with built-in AI to highlight enemies for you that almost definitely counts as cheating, yet there’s nothing they can do except ban the hardware all together.
Please tell me this perfectly plausible stupidest-thing-ever isn’t a thing.
This is how I felt about those monitors with crosshair overlays built in. Silly at best, or in games that purposely don’t put a crosshair unless you’re aiming or something, scummy at worst…
It is. Check 3:44
Here is an alternative Piped link(s):
Piped is a privacy-respecting open-source alternative frontend to YouTube.
I’m open-source; check me out at GitHub.
I find this comment funny, given the link I provided was copied from NewPiped.
NewPipe and Piped are pretty different things
Aaaand there goes linux support
Linux was never supported
Riot games official statement was that they were okay with linux players and actively went out of their way to make sure they didn’t get banned unjustly. They didn’t support linux as a software platform, which is why wine was required, but they did support linux players.
so… they didn’t support Linux. Got it.
That’s cool
I gave up League years ago when every update the launcher broke, then required some patches done to Wine. I’d known yhe kermel level anticheat would arrive someday but maybe I’m a little surprised it took as long as it did.
Is this the death of LoL on Linux, then? It was possible to get it working pretty well a few days after every patch, but this will change all that.
For the forseeable future, unless someone is committed enough to making Darling work.
(Mac layer instead of Windowz, the mac version does not and will not have vanguard.)Yes, if Valorant hasn’t been playable on Linux due to Vanguard then so will LoL.
It’s the death of LoL anywhere. Only suckers will play it.
Isn’t that basically the entire player base anyway?
Yes unfortunately. Just gotta hope that none of those suckers can be exploited for military advantage. Probably not.
Different software purposes and all, but it vaguely puts me in the mind of the Sony compact disc DRM scandal.
Here’s the summary for the wikipedia article you mentioned in your comment:
The Sony BMG CD copy protection scandal concerns the copy protection measures included by Sony BMG on compact discs in 2005. When inserted into a computer, the CDs installed one of two pieces of software that provided a form of digital rights management (DRM) by modifying the operating system to interfere with CD copying. Neither program could easily be uninstalled, and they created vulnerabilities that were exploited by unrelated malware. One of the programs would install and “phone home” with reports on the user’s private listening habits, even if the user refused its end-user license agreement (EULA), while the other was not mentioned in the EULA at all. Both programs contained code from several pieces of copylefted free software in an apparent infringement of copyright, and configured the operating system to hide the software’s existence, leading to both programs being classified as rootkits.
Good bot, if this is how you earn your keep.
That’s gonna be an uninstall for me, Tencent.
Nope. Take your rootkit and go fuck yourself with it.
There’s absolutely 0 reason a game should ever have kernel access. Ie unrestricted access to every piece of data on the system.
Funnally enoigh, the reason for and against game companies exploiting a critical vulnrability to access to ring -1 is way stronger. If you installed an anticheet to ring -1, No MoRe PiRiCy, nobody needs to know its there, nobody can remove it, its not like your system is unusable now, and best yet, its a verry big target for other shady types to join the ring -1 party. /s
Another game I’ll never play 👍🏻
Eh, probably for the best, everything I’ve heard about LoL is that it turns you into a toxic hateful shell of a human.
I was gonna care until I read league of legends. Clearly people already hate themselves and despise sensible choices and alternatives. Otherwise they wouldn’t play lol.
Everything bad about LoL is it being a MOBA. I think you can’t prevent toxicity in a MOBA.
In a team with randoms, if you start losing you’re stuck in an unfun game where you get crushed by the ennemi for half an hour.
What’s not to love?
tl;dr: Was never toxic or angry, and was consciously trying to not blame others but focus on my performance, but eventually gave up on DOTA, because it’s too complex to play seriously and captain a team. Switched to Starcraft2, and realized how mentally taxing and depressing it is when you don’t have a team to blame, and that you unconsciously blame teammates because it’s a powerful mental defense mechanism. I’ve never felt worse, stressed and anxious, than after a loosing spree in 1v1 Starcraft.
I’ve spent hundreds of hours playing DOTA in highschool, and eventually I’ve reached the conclusion that unless you play with (and ideally are a captain) in a premade team, there’s not really a point in playing - you will never get better alone, and you will unconsciously always blame other teammates, making it harder to learn your lessons and improve. (I’m deeply flegmatic and forgiving in regards to others, a archetypal support main, so i never was getting angry or toxic, thankfully. So I was usually more focused on my own performance and didn’t care that other fuck up - or so I thought)
I’ve also quickly realised that the knowledge required to be a captain is something that even after thousands of games, and hours of research, I’ll never be able to get. There’s so many variables you need to know just to pick a team comp and get through the ban and pick phase, and then you add itemization to the mix, knowing what your team should do based on the current minute, hero picks, and items chosen by your and enemy team… I really respect any pro player due to that, because its isane how many variables they have to work with.
And so I switched to Overwatch, because there, the meta is a little bit easier to follow and there’s not that many variables in play, to be able to lead your team.
I wasn’t able to get a stable team willing to take the game seriously, and eventually I’ve also noticed that I still tend to subconsciously focus on what my team did wrong, instead of my own gameplay.
So, I switched to StarCraft 2. And oh boy, those were the worst few months of my gaming life. The meta was eaiser to grasp, I knew what to do, the issue was building the muscle memory to execute it correctly. But there are plenty of resources, from training maps to The Staircase method, so I was making a pretty good progress.
However, the Ranked. Here, I’ve realized how much blaming others in team games is a necessary defense mechanism, because in this game, you have only yourself to blame for every loss. Hitting that play button in Ranked was terrifying, I was regularly depressed and felt terrible after every loss. It was so taxing to my mental well-being, because most of the games you play, just end with: “You suck. That was a beginners mistake. You’ll never be good at this game, and you have only yourself to blame. Just give up.”.
There’s no blaming teammates, theres no " I’ve made a few mistakes, but my team also…", which as it turns out, being able to do that is a tremendous help in regards to your mental health.
I still had fun, it was a great challenge and I enjoyed learning the game and slowly getting better, but the losses, and especially loss streaks, were so stessfull and taxing, to the point where I was literally anxious to the point of almost having panic attacks every time I wanted to hit that fucking Find Ranked Match button.
But the wins, oh boy I’ve never felt better in my life. But, you know - as an average player playing at your rank, you should hover around 50% win rate. And that’s a lot of losses.
I’d recommend this experience to everyone who keeps playing competitive games with random players. It was eye opening in regards to how you handle losses, and a great introspection into how I subconsciously handle losses in team games, even though I never got angry.)
I’ve found on StarCraft 2 you can just blame the enemy. You can say “omg you cheesy 10 pool garbage” or “you just mass mutas all day congrats” or “making roaches is a good skill to have” or “congrats you made siege tanks” etc. I was very competitive at one point but now I just don’t really care much for it anymore. I’ll still play ARAMs with friends but maybe not after this kernel-level anticheat lol unless it works through Geforce cloud then I guess I could keep playing it.
Generally though, I’ve started out gaming with single-player games and I’ve mostly gone back to single-player games, other than playing RuneScape (OSRS and open-source RSPS) games etc ofc.
Oh, definitely. Blaming the opponent is something that I’ve also started doing, but also quickly found out that it doesn’t really work as well as blaming teammates in regards to your mental state.
“My noob teammates kept feeding the enemy, so there’s not much I could’ve done even if I played better.” shifts your guilt almost entirely on them. “The noob enemy chose an ease cheese strat” always has the slight problem that you always have to add (consciously, or you just know it subconsciously) “that I didn’t recognize in time and I didn’t manage to counter”. And that feeling will nag you :D
While it wasn’t 100% free from hate, Heroes of the Storm had significantly less of it. Similarly, GW2 has a far friendlier community than WoW, because game design does matter.
Similarly, GW2 has a far friendlier community than WoW, because game design does matter.
So much this.
GW1 was better
i mean, that’s not Moba specific, Counter Strike, you get 1 griefer and it becomes a slog fest.
it’s the people that suck, lots of raging and griefing at the slightest setback by people who have no life.
Quit that shit a long time ago, have not played multiplayer games in years.
Arent CS games a faster turnaround tho?
I don’t think so, CS games can go to up to 90 minutes theoretically, unless the game is really one-sided then the game lasts somewhere between 40-60 minutes, which I would say is a reasonable estimate for Dota 2, never played LoL so not sure how it is there.
Huh, I thought they had a max of 45. Maybe Im mixing that up with a different game
yeah probably, though CS is kinda ambiguous what the max is, but well that’s the max, unlikely to happen, this guy does a calculation of it:
Here is an alternative Piped link(s):
https://www.piped.video/watch?v=v8CmJ9namK0
Piped is a privacy-respecting open-source alternative frontend to YouTube.
I’m open-source; check me out at GitHub.
MOBA is possible to be good and have come back games but LoL is entenched in shitty game design choices from 15 years ago and largely survives because its free to play and anyone interested in MOBAs has heard of it and played it. I’d argue games like smite or monday night combat do the MOBA genre better and advance from crippling rts controls on an action oriented game, but those never caught on cause the moba crowd hates change and innovation.
You must not have paid attention to the smite “pro” scene if you believe that game is in a good spot.
Yep, a lot of recent anti-cheat is looking a lot like DRM.
more like intentionally installed malware but yes, 100 % this
Not just looking like DRM, I would say it IS DRM.
Not just DRM, a rootkit which is much worse.
Another reason not to play LoL.
The Chinese government wants to install a root kit on your PC
If you meet someone playing these games then they are the dumbest people you have run into
If you meet someone playing these games then they are the dumbest people you have run into
Hello, nice to meet you. I am trying to get away from it, but it’s hard. Sunk cost fallacy and all that. BUT I am playing at lot less. Having to dual boot to play one damn game is gonna help too.
Dual boot would only protect you if have your other side encrypted or are monitoing it to make sure the other partition is never mounted.
What you need to play games like this is a side-piece computer on its own LAN.
If you believe the game to be malware you should not play it. Even if it doesn’t have a kernel-level anticheat.
A binary on Windows can do pretty much whatever it wants.
Agreed. But I was more highlighting what lengths you need to go to protect yourself from a rootkit. I thought the parent mentioned dual booting as a sandboxing measure. I could have been mistaken.
Or they dont give a fuck what the chinese government thinks about them
Respectfully, I have to correct you. This argument is not correct way to think about privacy.
For Example :- You don’t care what I think about you but if I ask where do you live, what is your bank ac, what messages and email you send and to whom, etc. You will not provide me those details even though you don’t care what I think about you. Similarly a player might not care what they think about them but the mere collection of user data is bad for the player.
Very well put.
No, they might be ignorant of how bad this is though
It is at a level where you would write to your representatives to ban it. I assume you are ignorant of rootkits since you mentioned “what they think about you“ rather than “owning your pc”
Says the guy with a username as primitive as boobies lmao
2024 still on the red scare, for an american company nonetheless, lmao.
China isn’t leftist or communist
Tencent isn’t an American company
2024 still on the red scare, for an american company nonetheless, lmao.
To be fair, there is a small but real chance that we may be going to war with them someday in the future, over Taiwan.
Do you really want an adversary that can disable a large portion of your populations computers in one fell swoop?
This won’t change much for me considering i already have a dozen reasons not to play this shit ass game
I know two couples who got divorced because of it.
Care to elaborate?
The guys were playing all nights & weekends for years, neglected their wives and in one case children (other couple didn’t have any), the childless wife ended up cheating, the other allegedly as well (but wasn’t ever proven nor admitted to), both women eventually filed for divorce.
They also neglected their friends and came crawling back once their lives fell apart. I had since moved so didn’t really hang out with them again, but from what I hear, both got back into the game eventually and withdrew further.
What a shitty game to throw your life away over…
Alcohol doesn’t really taste good and neither do cigarettes.
People often times have illnesses that make these types of things consume their life. It’s easy to look down on them but they honestly need help.
And even then, perhaps illnesses aside even, there’s so many dark patterns built into these mass-appeal games it can grab anybody potentially. They’ll A/B test every little thing to see what holds a second’s more attention.
Everything is designed so hard to push players’ brains into a simple loop:
While(Alive == True): One_More_Match() Insert_Money()
I’d still consider it an exploitation or mental illnesses. Some people are just predisposed to getting addicted and struggle way harder. Just like some people can’t help themselves and gamble their lives away.
I agree that they clearly design games to be as addictive and consuming as possible but it’s still an exploitation of mental illnesses. I have never had to struggle with addiction so I feel a bit judgemental if I assume others are just ruining their life by choice.
Damn